I need wisdom with something.I see something ...

[Steven Bobb]

What we believe or think we know about anything really doesn't matter. We trouble ourselves with our thoughts especially if we don't ask Jesus to free us from our thoughts and give us His thoughts for our lives. I know I was once dead in my trespasses and sins and now I am alive with the Holy Spirit living in me desiring only to do things Jesus' ways. I have come so very close to leaving my body to be with Jesus quite a number of times and to be honest with you, the death pains I should have experienced I didn't notice. So when Jesus told me in the Bible that I wouldn't experience death I believed Him.

It was only after I was in the middle of a fuel explosion that my body experienced the pains of my skin having been burned. It is life here that is painful, especially thinking about our lives. I once ran into a road that was all busted up on a motorcycle with piles of rock and re bar that didn't have any markings from the way I went about it being closed. My last thought was when I noticed how it was that I'm going to need to get to one of the houses near and I was found after I crawled into someone's yard yet I don't have any recollection of anything after my last thought nor before I was revived. I'm not going to experience death is my only thought for death but it was first told to me hidden in the Bible. You ask us for help but do you ask Jesus? Jesus is the only one that can give any of us answers to our questions. I can't think of anything that I have asked Jesus for that He didn't bless me with, but especially answers to questions I had. You seem to carry a lot of beliefs from listening to others than spending a little more time asking Jesus, waiting on Jesus and letting His Word teach you

Hell is a very real place that you have not only heard of but you have seen Hell fire coming up out of the ground destroying everything in it's path. The ones that go there experience death everlasting and there is no life at all for them whatsoever. Maybe do a search online for the sounds of Hell and listen to it a couple of times.

What listening to others, this is in the Bible,the unsaved live forever to be tormented, and the saved live forever in Heaven.I didn't say we'd all DIE, I said we'd all live forever, but the unsaved and saved in different place. I DISAGREE WITH the groups who believe in "soul sleep". I think you misunderstood my meaning.I don't believe in "annihilationism, I believe the unsaved "dead" are concious enough to experience the torment.{The rich man and Lazarus was believed not to be a parable.}

 

[queenve]

I prayed for this in Jesus Name. Amen.

 

[Brother James]

What listening to others, this is in the Bible,the unsaved live forever to be tormented, and the saved live forever in Heaven.I didn't say we'd all DIE, I said we'd all live forever, but the unsaved and saved in different place. I DISAGREE WITH the groups who believe in "soul sleep". I think you misunderstood my meaning.I don't believe in "annihilationism, I believe the unsaved "dead" are concious enough to experience the torment.{The rich man and Lazarus was believed not to be a parable.}

The Bible does say that Jesus spoke in parables so we have to assume that it was more parabolic in nature for us. There has to be truth to the statement but it is more so spiritual. God's Word is Spirit so it is Spiritual. The rich man knew his state to say those things but to see anything out of the darkness of Hell, he must have just known that Lazarus was in the busam of Abraham and the rich man knew what God's Word said about Christ coming to die for us and being raised from the dead. The Bible isn't easy to understand nor is it easy to believe. For to believe everything in the Bible that seems to contradict itself takes the Holy Spirit to fully believe and to fully understand

The Bible doesn't say that those in Hell are alive but that they are experiencing death eternally. Should we add to the Word of God? You have read the last chapter of Revelations haven't you?

I know God is real and I know His Word is truth but I have struggled with things even things in the Bible and turned from Him but Jesus turned me back to Him so I also know we don't choose Him on our own. There are 2 basic kinds of believers, those that think God chose them and those that think they chose God. Unfortunately many won't know before it's too late and they are saying but didn't I do this or do that in Your Name? The Name Jesus does give power even to those that aren't saved at all even though God didn't choose them.

 

[Steven Bobb]

The Bible does say that Jesus spoke in parables so we have to assume that it was more parabolic in nature for us. There has to be truth to the statement but it is more so spiritual. God's Word is Spirit so it is Spiritual. The rich man knew his state to say those things but to see anything out of the darkness of Hell, he must have just known that Lazarus was in the busam of Abraham and the rich man knew what God's Word said about Christ coming to die for us and being raised from the dead. The Bible isn't easy to understand nor is it easy to believe. For to believe everything in the Bible that seems to contradict itself takes the Holy Spirit to fully believe and to fully understand

The Bible doesn't say that those in Hell are alive but that they are experiencing death eternally. Should we add to the Word of God? You have read the last chapter of Revelations haven't you?

I know God is real and I know His Word is truth but I have struggled with things even things in the Bible and turned from Him but Jesus turned me back to Him so I also know we don't choose Him on our own. There are 2 basic kinds of believers, those that think God chose them and those that think they chose God. Unfortunately many won't know before it's too late and they are saying but didn't I do this or do that in Your Name? The Name Jesus does give power even to those that aren't saved at all even though God didn't choose them.

That's up for debate because sometimes the Bible describes death as spiritual death instead of physical.Like, when God gave instructions to Adam and Eve, He said of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,"on the day you eat of it you will surely die". But did they die PHYSICALLY on that day? NO!!So there are instances in the Bible where something seems like it states something, but may not be meant in that exact way.Now how can the wicked be punished for alifetime of sin if they're not concious of anything?A few churches teach "annihilationism", but most believe the unsaved dead are conscious enough to feel the torment, as their punishment.Like,look at the statement"You were dead in your trepasses and sins"{before being saved}.Now if the word dead meant only physical, does that mean that an unsaved person is laying in a coffin.and "were" dead means when someone preaches the gospel to the corpse, the corpse jumps up and lives again?No!! The Bible can still say it and be true, because it meant spiritually dead, not physically.Whether the unsaved in hell could be defined as "alive" in the strictest sense,that's another issue. But I and I'd say the vast majority of Christians believe they're at least conscious enough to feel the torment,as their punishment."Eternally dead" could mean eternally separated from God , with no means of redemption.

 

[Steven Bobb]

That's up for debate because sometimes the Bible describes death as spiritual death instead of physical.Like, when God gave instructions to Adam and Eve, He said of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,"on the day you eat of it you will surely die". But did they die PHYSICALLY on that day? NO!!So there are instances in the Bible where something seems like it states something, but may not be meant in that exact way.Now how can the wicked be punished for alifetime of sin if they're not concious of anything?A few churches teach "annihilationism", but most believe the unsaved dead are conscious enough to feel the torment, as their punishment.Like,look at the statement"You were dead in your trepasses and sins"{before being saved}.Now if the word dead meant only physical, does that mean that an unsaved person is laying in a coffin.and "were" dead means when someone preaches the gospel to the corpse, the corpse jumps up and lives again?No!! The Bible can still say it and be true, because it meant spiritually dead, not physically.Whether the unsaved in hell could be defined as "alive" in the strictest sense,that's another issue. But I and I'd say the vast majority of Christians believe they're at least conscious enough to feel the torment,as their punishment."Eternally dead" could mean eternally separated from God , with no means of redemption.

Another example of a seeming "contradiction" that can be explained is,when describing the Rapture, we read ,"The dead in Christ will rise first". But we're told in another Bible verse,"Through Adam all died,, but in Jesus Christ all were made alive." Howcould the dead in Christ rise first, if in Christ all are made alive?' Not a contradiction,or that I'm preaching heresy."made alive means not dead in sins.The "dead" in Christ rising first means Christians from years past who in the body, have passed away,but they "go up'and get a glorified body.One is physical, the other is spiritual.

 

[Brother James]

Another example of a seeming "contradiction" that can be explained is,when describing the Rapture, we read ,"The dead in Christ will rise first". But we're told in another Bible verse,"Through Adam all died,, but in Jesus Christ all were made alive." Howcould the dead in Christ rise first, if in Christ all are made alive?' Not a contradiction,or that I'm preaching heresy."made alive means not dead in sins.The "dead" in Christ rising first means Christians from years past who in the body, have passed away,but they "go up'and get a glorified body.One is physical, the other is spiritual.

Some take what God says and leaves it at what He says. Others take what God says and thinks pass what He says to try to make sense of it. Are they adding to Jesus' Perfect Written Word? Are all the plagues listed in the Bible hunting for them?

 

[Steven Bobb]

Some take what God says and leaves it at what He says. Others take what God says and thinks pass what He says to try to make sense of it. Are they adding to Jesus' Perfect Written Word? Are all the plagues listed in the Bible hunting for them?

Or it's possible YOU misinterpreted some things.Check Revelation 14:11---"and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".How could someone with no state of consciousness be tormented?How about,"There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?"Do people completely dead weep and nash their teeth?You probably belong to a church that teaches"anihilationism".Some churches teach that, but ask any on this site,and you'll find maybe roughly 90% of Christians say the people in hell will feel torment.

 

[Brother James]

Or it's possible YOU misinterpreted some things.Check Revelation 14:11---"and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".How could someone with no state of consciousness be tormented?How about,"There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?"Do people completely dead weep and nash their teeth?You probably belong to a church that teaches"anihilationism".Some churches teach that, but ask any on this site,and you'll find maybe roughly 90% of Christians say the people in hell will feel torment.

I tell you what my friend, show me where it actually states in the Bible that those in Hell are actually alive and not experiencing eternal death and eternal suffering and I will see it your way. Just because the Bible states that the smoke of their torment is everlasting does not mean that they are experiencing everlasting life. That is everlasting death, not everlasting life. Just because they are tormented day and night for an eternity where their worm never fully dies does not mean that they have any kind of life. No where in the Bible does it mention that they have a life. If they have eternal death, how can they have eternal life in that eternal death? I just firmly believe that if we call eternal death any kind of eternal life that we are adding to what the Perfect Written Word States

But go ahead and show me where you read that and I will see it for myself and I will believe it wholeheartedly

 

[Steven Bobb]

I tell you what my friend, show me where it actually states in the Bible that those in Hell are actually alive and not experiencing eternal death and eternal suffering and I will see it your way. Just because the Bible states that the smoke of their torment is everlasting does not mean that they are experiencing everlasting life. That is everlasting death, not everlasting life. Just because they are tormented day and night for an eternity where their worm never fully dies does not mean that they have any kind of life. No where in the Bible does it mention that they have a life. If they have eternal death, how can they have eternal life in that eternal death? I just firmly believe that if we call eternal death any kind of eternal life that we are adding to what the Perfect Written Word States

But go ahead and show me where you read that and I will see it for myself and I will believe it wholeheartedly

Matthew 25:46,"and these will go to eternal torment"Now let's make sure we understand each others meaning. You just mentioned something .You stated, "just because they are tormented". But by admitting that they are tormented,goes to my point about, they have some kind of consciousness.I thought you were preaching what some preach as God just "wipes them out"and they don't exist anymore.But if you admit they DO feel the torment,you're not stating that. And me, notice I did state that, it might not be "alive" in the stirct sense of the word,but some state of consciousness.{What I meant was, they have enough consciousness to feel the torment.}{not completely obliterated}That I was disagreeing with the ones who preach, they will be "wiped out", and not feel the torment. So maybe, after all this bickering, this is more of a misunderstanding. You agreed the scripture said they do feel the torment, and I for my part stated that it might not be considered "alive " in the sense usually meant. What I meant was some form of awareness,to feel the torment.So you were arguing ovr my choice of using the word "alive", and I thought you were preaching annihilationism. A bit of a misunderstanding.But I did clarify in one of my replies that they may not be "alive" in the strict sense. I meant some awareness, to experience the torture.

 

[Brother James]

Matthew 25:46,"and these will go to eternal torment"Now let's make sure we understand each others meaning. You just mentioned something .You stated, "just because they are tormented". But by admitting that they are tormented,goes to my point about, they have some kind of consciousness.I thought you were preaching what some preach as God just "wipes them out"and they don't exist anymore.But if you admit they DO feel the torment,you're not stating that. And me, notice I did state that, it might not be "alive" in the stirct sense of the word,but some state of consciousness.{What I meant was, they have enough consciousness to feel the torment.}{not completely obliterated}That I was disagreeing with the ones who preach, they will be "wiped out", and not feel the torment. So maybe, after all this bickering, this is more of a misunderstanding. You agreed the scripture said they do feel the torment, and I for my part stated that it might not be considered "alive " in the sense usually meant. What I meant was some form of awareness,to feel the torment.

All I am saying is that God does not use the term eternal life for those in Hell. I just don't see any sense in adding or taking away from the Words Written in the Bible. It only adds our thoughts to God's Word to say any more than what God States and then we lose God's meaning and we gain trouble for ourselves. I don't have any desire to have any plagues looking for me and I don't think you do either

The main reason we suffer is a lack of knowledge. Why would we want to not know something only because we added our ignorant thoughts to God's Perfect Wisdom? Telling others they will have everlasting life in Hell if they don't believe in Jesus doesn't make Hell sound that bad or even that believable a place. There is nothing to do in Hell but thirst as Hell's thirst is never quenched. The rich man only asked for a drop of water for himself, didn't he? While Hell would be a horrible place, if we are true Christians we don't really need to think on it pass what is written about it to know that it is real

Tormented night and day, how? For a drop of water? For thirst? Yes! Why think passed that?