Protecting Your Marriage, Raising Godly Kids, Finding Your Calling -Interview with Jerry Jenkins

. CLICK TO SUBSCRIBE TO OUR FREE MARRIAGE ENCOURAGEMENT PODCAST


Marriage is a beautiful gift from God, and it requires intentionality, prayer, and protection. In my recent conversation with Jerry Jenkins, bestselling author of Hedges and the Left Behind series, we talked about how to guard our marriages, raise godly children, and walk in our calling.

Protecting Your Marriage with Hedges

Proverbs 4:23 reminds us, “Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.” One of the most powerful tools for guarding our marriages is setting up what Jerry refers to as “hedges”—intentional boundaries that keep temptation and distractions out.

Here are some practical hedges Jerry shared:

• Never be alone with the opposite sex. This includes avoiding solo meals, car rides, and private meetings. The Billy Graham rule exists for a reason—it prevents temptation and false accusations.
• Be mindful of touch and flirtation. Even seemingly harmless jokes or casual physical touch can open doors that should remain shut. Would you say or do that in front of your spouse?
• Limit exposure to inappropriate content. With pornography and sexual content more accessible than ever, we need to proactively guard our eyes and minds (Psalm 101:3 – “I will set no worthless thing before my eyes.”).
• Prioritize time with your spouse. No matter how busy life gets, our spouses need to feel seen, heard, and cherished every day.

Raising Godly Children with Intentionality​

Deuteronomy 6:6-7 tells us, “These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.” Raising godly children doesn’t happen by accident—it requires intentional, everyday discipleship.

Some key parenting takeaways from our conversation:

• Model faith. Show your children what it means to love Jesus by living out your faith daily.
• Spend quality time with them. Be present, engaged, and involved in their lives.
• Be cautious with technology. The digital world is full of dangers—social media comparison, inappropriate content, and wasted time. Set boundaries for your kids AND yourself.

Finding Your Calling and Walking in It​

Many people think their calling is some mysterious thing, but it often starts with simple obedience. Jerry Jenkins shared that although he never felt “called” to be a writer, he knew God had gifted him in it—so he pursued it with excellence.

If you’re struggling to find your calling, consider these steps:

• What has God already equipped you with? He often equips before He calls.
• Are you stewarding your gifts well? Whether big or small, use what you have for God’s glory.
• Are you walking closely with Him? Prayer and time in God’s Word will illuminate His path for you (Psalm 119:105 – “Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.”).

Marriage, parenting, and callings are all gifts from God that require our intentional effort. By setting up hedges, being present with our families, and faithfully walking in our giftings, we can honor God in every aspect of our lives.

READ TRANSCRIPT​

Aaron Smith (00:00):

Hey friends, I just wanted to talk to you for a few seconds. We’re going to get into the content soon, but if you’re new to this show, we just want to invite you to subscribe. We’re trying to see 2025 be a year of growth and expansion. We just need people like you to subscribe to our channel and to share about the episodes that you just are totally in love with on social media. And then lastly, if you can leave us a review today, we’d greatly appreciate it. The algorithms will appreciate it. And so thank you so much for joining us on the Mary Jeff of God podcast and I just pray that you enjoyed this content. Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Mary Jeff of God podcast. I’m Aaron Smith, your host. Today’s episode is very special. I get to interview Jerry Jenkins, the father of Dallas Jenkins, the creator of the chosen, but Jerry Jenkins.

(00:45)
He is the author of over 195 books, 21 of them New York Times bestsellers. He’s the author of books that I grew up reading called Let the Left Behind Series. I don’t know if any of my listeners have ever read those books, but they’re books about the end times. And Jerry Jenkins has written a book, I think it came out in 1989 originally it’s called Hedges, and they refreshed it now for more modern issues for the readers. And Hedges is about creating intentional boundaries in your life to protect you from things that might want to get in and cause damage to you and your marriage. And so I have an awesome conversation with Jerry Jenkins about these things, about his own hedges, about stories, about him getting falling in love with his wife, but most importantly we talk about the modern issue with technology, with cell phones, with social media and the easy access to pornography, but also to the life outside of our own, the temptation to see that the grass is greener on the other side. So I just hope you enjoyed this conversation I have with Jerry Jenkins. So enjoy. Hey, I’m Aaron.

Jennifer Smith (02:00):

And I’m Jennifer.

Aaron Smith (02:00):

And we’re the hosts of the Marriage After God Podcast. Our desire is to help you cultivate a marriage that chases boldly after God’s will for your life together.

Jennifer Smith (02:07):

We want to invite you to subscribe to our show wherever you watch or listen.

Aaron Smith (02:10):

We are so glad you’re here and we pray that our discussion truly blesses you and your marriage.

Jennifer Smith (02:15):

Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast.

Aaron Smith (02:23):

Alright everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Marriage After God podcast. I’m sitting here with Jerry Jenkins, author of the book Hedges, which is what something we’re going to be talking about today. But welcome to my show, Jerry. I’m so happy to have you.

Jerry Jenkins (02:35):

Great to be with you, Aaron. Thanks.

Aaron Smith (02:37):

So I think first of all, I’m honored to have you on. It’s incredible knowing from childhood that I’ve known about you because of books you’ve written years ago that shaped a lot of my understanding of things scripturally, eschatological. But I’d love for my audience to get to know you a little bit more. Why don’t you share a little bit of who you are, your background and your family, marriage, children, and then maybe a little bit of your career as well.

Jerry Jenkins (03:06):

Yeah, I’m a deliriously, happily married man. January will be 54 years since Diana and I were married. We have three grown sons. One is more famous than I am at this point. He used to be known Dallas Jenkins, used to be known as Jerry Jenkins son. I’m now known as Dallas Jenkins father. He’s the creator of the chosen and the best Christmas pageant ever in some other movies. Our other two sons, one is Sports Information Director at Mid-American Nazarene University in Kansas. And our youngest son, our first two are married and have four of our grandchildren each. Our third son is single, but helped put himself through Colorado Christian University by dealing poker in a casino. Crazy. Some people don’t understand that and they’ll say, do you think Jesus would do that? And I said, yeah, I kind of think he would. If you read the book and some Mike actually has a tattoo on his wrist that says Db lb. People ask him what that means and he says, I can’t tell you except on break. And when they ask him, he says, it means don’t be left behind. And if they’re curious, he gives them a book and tells ’em how they don’t have to be left behind when the rapture comes. So he’s got his little ministry there.

(04:27)
I have been a writer all my life. It’s interesting. Some people assume because I’ve written more than 200 books and I don’t sing or dance or preach, writing is all I do, they assume that I have a call to writing. And actually I never felt a call to writing. I wanted to be a writer and at age 14 talked myself into a sports writing job with a local paper and they tried me out as a stringer covering high school football and basketball games, things like that. But a couple of years into that thinking that I would grow up to be a sports writer, sports editor, something like that, I did feel a call. I got a definite call at a camp meeting to full-time Christian work. I felt convicted. I felt I needed to go forward. And I even remember thinking that I’d probably have to give up the sports writing, give up the writing and study to be a pastor or a missionary. I didn’t necessarily feel gifted in those areas, but I was willing to accept that call. And the very wise counselor that night, in fact, it was the wife of the speaker, I told her my story and she said, don’t be too quick. I was only 16 at the time. She said, don’t be too quick to give up the writing because God often equips us before he calls us. And if he’s equipped you with this gift, that may be the vehicle you use to fulfill this call to full-time Christian work.

(05:57)
So ironically, never called to writing, but called to full-time Christian work. And simply, I’m not trying to be falsely modest, but I feel like I’m mono gifted and I have one gift and I feel obligated to exercise it to fulfill that call.

Aaron Smith (06:13):

Well, you’re using it and it’s very similar to my wife and I. We got married and I told her when I proposed to her, I said, I dunno what we’re going to do. I don’t care what we do, I just want to do it with you and I want to do it for God. We didn’t plan on starting a writing ministry and an online podcast and a marriage ministry even, but that’s the stepping stones that God put before us. That’s where it led. So it sounds very similar to how you got into this and 200 books is very impressive and it’s incredible and it’s been very impactful in this world. You brought up Left Behind the tattoo on your son’s arm. Was that what your first series you did?

Jerry Jenkins (06:51):

Ironically, I get asked this a lot. People say, have you written anything other than Left Behind? Left Behind? The first title came out 29 years ago. Oh my goodness. And it was my hundred 25th book.

Aaron Smith (07:05):

Whoa,

Jerry Jenkins (07:06):

That’s amazing. I’ve done a few things other before, nothing that was ever as monumentally successful as the Left Behind series. The irony of this being so old now, 29 years ago, that series of 16 titles is still selling about 10,000 units a month to this day. It’s just unbelievable. Remain stunned even now.

Aaron Smith (07:29):

Well, I would imagine you launched that first title at just the right time. It was coming at the end of a century, or I should say that it was end of the thousands going into the two thousands. And it was right around when everyone was thinking about what does this mean and what are we looking for to the future? So you kind of hit that market right at the right time in the Christian culture. So that’s pretty cool. I wanted to Go ahead.

Jerry Jenkins (07:58):

I was going to say we didn’t do that on purpose. So people have often said, did you do it for that reason? That book came out in 95 and people were thinking about the end of the millennium, and I don’t know why, but everybody sort of associated it with the end of the world. We didn’t think that, I mean, for one thing, we’re on a different calendar than God is and we haven’t even gotten our calendar,

Aaron Smith (08:21):

Our

Jerry Jenkins (08:21):

Calendar’s off. Now we say that Jesus was born four years before Christ, which is kind of ironic, but you’re right. When the end of the millennium came, people were scared to death. People were wondering what prophecy said, people were wondering about the future, and we just happened to have the series in full.

Aaron Smith (08:41):

Yeah, no, it was a spiritual timing thing, which is pretty incredible. You mentioned one of your sons dealt poker. I’m familiar with that because I grew up, both my grandparents worked at casinos pretty much my whole childhood up until they passed away. And so I spent a lot of time with them and they had little poker games at their house, and so one of them was a dealer, one of ’em worked behind the counter. And so one second, my son’s in here, so yeah, I totally get that. Dallas, by the way, we just saw, me and my family just went and saw the greatest Christmas pageant ever. It was really good. And we really, I loved it. All my kids were laughing, I was laughing harder than my kids were. And then I ended up crying and we went another friend’s family, another family friends of ours, and I told him I was crying. He’s like, what are you crying? I was like, I don’t know. I get emotional at stuff like that.

Jerry Jenkins (09:46):

Me too. I do.

Aaron Smith (09:47):

I totally do. It’s so funny. I’m not usually an emotional person, but there’s certain things, especially in movies that they just get me.

Jerry Jenkins (09:55):

And that’s one of the reasons Dallas wanted to do that. It was a bestselling book 50 years ago, and he loved it. And when he tried to read it to his kids, he would break down and his wife said, oh, let me read it. So she’d start reading it, she’d break down, they’d be tag teaming each other, trying to read through it,

Aaron Smith (10:11):

Trying to choke through the story.

Jerry Jenkins (10:13):

And he had the same experience directing these kids and directing the movie. And it is a very emotional watch. And as you say, it’s funny too. So it is just a, I think it’s going to become a classic.

Aaron Smith (10:25):

It was done really well. Yeah. Old pastor of mine used to read that book every Christmas to his family. They would just sit down, he reads the whole book straight through. So I was familiar with the story, but excited to see it. So you also collaborated with your son on the chosen series. We talked about this last time when I met with you. Usually the book’s written first and then a movie or an adaptation is done later. But you are currently, are you still working on or are they done the adaptations of the show?

Jerry Jenkins (10:59):

Yeah, I write a novel to go along with each season, but as you say, it’s backward. It’s after the season has been shot or at least been scripted. So right now I have finished the novel for season five and season five comes out I think Good Friday next year and probably coincide with when the book comes out as well. And I’m waiting for the scripts for season six, so I can get started on that. So there’d be six and seven to go

Aaron Smith (11:27):

Yet. Yeah, my family’s loved the Chosen, so we’re excited to see more of those seasons come out. So you’ve been writing nearly your whole life, probably longer than you we’re not writing right in your life now? Oh, for sure.

Jerry Jenkins (11:42):

I’m 75 years old, so I’ve been writing since I was, I like to say I’ve been a professional writer since I was 14 because that first job I got talking my way into the sports writing job. This is back when rainbows were black and white, but the guy would edit my stories and of course I was learning how to be edited and how to be concise and all that type of thing. He would pay me $1 per inch that appeared in the newspaper. So if my story came out to eight or 10 inches or 12 inches, I’d get eight or 10 or 12 bucks. And back in those olden days, that was pretty high cotton for a young teenager, but it made me a professional. And so I’ve been a professional for all that time.

Aaron Smith (12:22):

That’s awesome. My wife and I, because we’ve done a lot of cell publishing, one of the things that we do to our kids, we homeschool our kids, we give them a project where they create an alphabet book. So they put the letters in, they draw a picture and it’s on a theme like food or flowers, and then we will help them publish it. So a few of our kids are published authors currently right now. Very cool. I wouldn’t say they’re professional publish authors yet because I don’t know if they’ve sold new books, but

Jerry Jenkins (12:48):

You need to pay them so they can be professional.

Aaron Smith (12:50):

Exactly. It’s just a part of our process, just not whether or not they’re going to be authors when they grow up, just showing them that the ability to do these things, there’s so many opportunities out there that they can look back and be like, oh, ive created a book before. I could do that again in the future if I wanted to or give them a bigger view of potential careers in the future and the talents that they have and how they can be used. And so writing and publishing for us has been a big part of that, so I can relate to that. That’s great training. Yeah, it’s really cool. How have you balanced your family life with the writing is you set hours, you talked about this in your book actually, and we will get more into this in Hedges, but how do you balance your family life, your spiritual life, and then your career with writing?

Jerry Jenkins (13:38):

Yeah, I have to say, and again, I don’t want to sound self-promotional, but that I do think is one thing that we’ve done right before kids even came along before Dallas is our oldest, before he was even born, I was working at a place called Scripture Press. They published Sunday school papers and curriculum and that type of thing. And I was doing, I had five different assignments where I was interviewing five men who all happened to, these were totally different stories, but they all happened to be about twice my age at the time, I was early twenties, newly married, and I was interviewing these guys about their ministry or about some experience they’d had or maybe they were an athletes or whatever. And at one point in each of the interviews, I asked them all the same question. I said, what regrets do you have at this stage of your life?

(14:29)
And to a man, every one of ’em answered the same way. They said, I wish I’d spent more time with my kids when they were growing up. I was so addicted to providing for the family and thinking that was the best thing I could do for ’em. And I remember going home and talking to Diana that day after interviewing all those guys, and I said, somebody’s clearly trying to tell me something because if I to be that age and have that same regret, I’m going to be without excuse. And so we set a policy, as I say, even before the kids came along, that when they came along, I would not do any writing or any work from the office. I was working full-time at Moody Bible and student Chicago as well. I wouldn’t do any office work or any writing on the side from the time I got home from work until the time the kids went to bed. And I maintained that religiously through all the years that we were raising those boys. And I’m not saying this is a guarantee. I know other people who raised their kids very similar ways in prayer and keep ’em in church and all that and still have prodigals. But for us, our boys are our best friends to this day. We didn’t have rebels, we didn’t have Prodigals kids spell love, TIME,

(15:43)
And they got that from us. The time we spent was different for each kid. Dallas was a talker, so we did a lot of talking. Chad was kind of a quiet kid, so we did a lot of playing and not talking. And Mike was sort of in between. He would talk and play, but as I say, we’re still close to them today. And that’s how we, I balanced. And there were things that I sacrificed. I mean, I think there were opportunities for travel and for ministry that maybe I could have had if I’d have said, well, daddy’s going to be gone for a while. But I wanted to maintain that policy. And then spiritually, I should have learned this as a teenager. I had a really good youth for Christ director in my high school who kept pushing on us, the qt, the quiet time, start your day with a quiet time, with prayer, with Bible reading, with a devotion, something like that. And I am ashamed to say I didn’t catch onto that early enough. It was decades before I really got into the groove, but for several years now, that is how I start my day. And of course before I write, I actually have a kneeling bench that’s not for show, but I can look at it in my office here before I write. I just kneel at that bench. And I’m not asking God to give me the exact words. I don’t believe I’m writing scriptures or that

Jerry Jenkins (17:04):

It’s

Jerry Jenkins (17:05):

Verbally inspired from God, but I’m sacrificing myself to him and saying, I’m not good enough to do this. I don’t know what to say. I’ll use everything you’ve given me and I’ll use everything I’ve learned and try to teach to writers online and that type of thing. But I’m here. That’s how I sort of manage my spiritual life. Start with that QT and surrender to God before I write.

Aaron Smith (17:30):

Jerry, I think you’re hitting on two huge things that I think husbands and wives can take away from this if they took nothing else away from our entire conversation, taking away these two things. The fact is that every single person that has children, I would imagine I’ve heard it over and over again, I just wish I spent more time. I wish I would’ve been more intentional. I wish I can go back and take that time back. That first one I just wanted to make a note on that is it’s something that’s really hard for me. I work from home and I’m around my kids a lot and I tend to tell myself or I’m present. That should be enough. I also tell myself, and I believe a lot of men, do we justify the not spending time because we’re busy or we’re trying to take care of our family where we have these things that are our minds or we have work that we’re considering and thinking about, but I think it’s less about that we can’t do it. I think we use those as excuses because taking the intentional time that you’re talking about is actually, it’s difficult. It’s difficult to go out of our flesh, to slow down enough and to be intentional enough to dig in with our children. I know this personally because I can feel it when I try and stop and I tell myself, I’m going to spend time with my kids. Everything in my flesh wants to fight against that.

(18:55)
I have something else to do. I have something I need to go take care of. This is plenty of time, this is too boring or whatever it is. My flesh wants to not slow down and just be with my children, be with my wife and

Jerry Jenkins (19:09):

Kids recognize that I don’t care how young they are. When your mind is divided and it’s like you’re listening to them and you’re talking to them, but you’ve got this other thing on your mind or this call you need to make or this thing you need to do, they catch that. And there’s that old myth that went through that even the church some decades ago about if you can’t spend quantity time with your kids, spend quality time with your kids, kids don’t know the difference to them quality time is quantity time. And the most gratifying thing I can hear from my grown kids now is that they said they felt seen and they felt heard

Jerry Jenkins (19:45):

Because

Jerry Jenkins (19:46):

I gave them my full attention. It wasn’t like, alright, tell me quick I got to do this thing. It was this time is yours, whatever you want to say or do. And yeah, stuff with kids, you think, well, I could be much more productive. I could be writing a book, I could be planning a speech or whatever it is. And now I realize investing that time with them was the most productive thing I could do.

Aaron Smith (20:08):

It’s one of the hedges, I think it’s your sixth hedge of your personal hedges that you have in your book that I highlight. And I was like, I need to pray through this and I need to work on building this hedge in my own life to protect time with my kids and also when I intend to go spend time with them, not just be around them because I’m around them a lot, but to intentionally shut off everything else

(20:32)
To be with them, that’s something that just going through your book really convicted me. But the second one that I was bringing up was the qt, the quality time with God, the quiet time with God. And really, again, I find myself, I’m busy, I have things to do, my mind’s preoccupied. And so the exact same struggle I have with my children and my family, that connecting with him, I find myself having with God stopping and praying and reading his word and connecting with him. So like I said, I just pray that my audience listening and myself I’m receiving from this is those two things. There’s almost nothing more important in this life outside of our salvation in Jesus Christ than those two things, quality time with your family and quality time with God.

Jerry Jenkins (21:24):

And you’re right that especially that’s a danger era, and I think with those of us in ministry is we say we’re in the Bible all the time. We’re looking for verses, we’re looking for things. Yeah,

Aaron Smith (21:33):

It’s not the

Jerry Jenkins (21:33):

Same. And so we’re living a devotional life and God is like, no, that’s your time. That’s what you’re doing for me. Let me do something for you. Stop and listen, pray, read your Bible, do your devotional, have that quiet time. So it’s Christian. Like I say, I wish I had caught on when I was a teenager, but at least I’m getting there now.

Aaron Smith (21:55):

I need to step it up in my life for sure. I think about Jesus, he did. His life was ministry for at least the last three and a half years of his life. And there’s so many verses. It says early in the morning, yet while everyone was still asleep and yet while it was still dark, he goes off into a desolate place to pray. Jesus, even though his life was devotion, his life was ministry would go off to and he had to seek the Father to recharge, to receive from him. And yet I think I’m capable of going without it. How foolish of me. So let’s talk about Hedges. Your book, this book isn’t a new book, but it’s a refreshed book. So when it just come out originally,

(22:43)
Do you desire to pray more for your spouse? Do you desire to pray more with your spouse? We understand that you may not know where to start or maybe you feel uncomfortable praying or maybe you don’t know what to pray, or maybe you simply want to add something more to your current prayer life. This is why we wrote the Marriage Gift 365 Prayers for Our Marriage. We desire that it would be used as a daily reminder and catalyst for you and your spouse to grow a dynamic and consistent prayer life together. This book is a compilation of 365 unique and powerful prayers that cover a range of diverse topics that every marriage deals with. You can read it alone or ideally you read it with your spouse. Also, we hope that the topics that are brought up in these prayers would become a starting point for deeper and more intimate conversations with your spouse and a desire to seek God on these matters together. Visit the marriage gift.com today in order your copy and give your marriage the greatest gift, powerful and meaningful prayer. Visit the marriage gift.com today.

Jerry Jenkins (23:39):

Actually, the original version of Hedges came out in 1989, and I find it kind of ironic because a lot of the readers now are younger than that, and yet sadly, I mean this is a book about planning hedges to protect your marriage and protect the fidelity of your marriage. Sadly, it’s more needed now than it’s ever been. This is actually the fourth iteration of this title. But this time I did a complete revise and update. And kind of an ironic thing, I wanted to make sure the reader got it that this is fresh and new. And so in the rewrite, I kept referring to this new century things that may have been true in the last century. Now were, for instance, avoiding adult theaters. There aren’t even adult theaters anymore. They don’t need to be because it’s everything you’d need for porn is on the internet. But I kept referring to this new century and I got a note from my editor, and I think she was probably born in the nineties, and she said, is this a new century? And I thought, well, to me it is. It seems like we just flipped over to the new century.

(24:44)
We’re a quarter of the way through it. And for her, most of her life has been in this century. So I had to do a little more revision on that. But yeah, it’s totally updated. The research and the statistics and some of my hedges have changed. For instance, the hedge you mentioned about spending all that time with my kids, my kids aren’t at home anymore. And so fortunately they caught onto this. They’re doing the same with their kids and they benefited from it. But I’ve added a few hedges and one of the points I try to make is my hedges are not necessarily going to be your hedges. In fact, they probably won’t be because my hedges reveal my weaknesses. And it makes you very vulnerable when you say, here are things I hedge against. And some people say, wow, you’re hedging against something I don’t even worry about. One of mine is about how you embrace somebody or touch someone who’s not related to you.

(25:41)
I’m very careful about that. And some people are go, I’m a hugger and maybe they don’t need that hedge. Maybe that doesn’t give them any temptation issues or thought life issues. For me, it could if it’s somebody I admire and respect and I’m embracing them and it’s not in public, there are issues there, but other people have hedges. I have friends who are deeply devoted Christian friends who say they have to plant a hedge around driving to the wrong part of town and being tempted by the street walkers on the corner, that type of thing. Nothing appeals less to me than something like that, but I get it. If that’s your temptation, you need a hedge there. So basically that’s my message is that here are my hedges. If you need to know where my weaknesses are, and some may seem silly or overblown, but what are your hedges? And maybe you need more than seven, maybe you need 14, maybe you only need two. But the point is find out what your weaknesses are, plant your hedges because your marriage will be the better for it.

Aaron Smith (26:43):

Why don’t you describe for our listeners for a moment, I think we can infer what we’re talking about, but describe what is a hedge and why might we need them?

Jerry Jenkins (26:54):

Yeah, basically this idea came from back in the eighties when my youngest brother was about to get married, and his question to me was, when I get married, will I stop looking at other women? It’s a magic bullet, right? Yeah. Wouldn’t that be a nice blessing that you get married, you grow blinders because we say it and we mean it. And in our vows we mean it too, that we’re going to keep you only unto myself for as long as we both shall live. That’s our intention. That’s what we want. And you’re so in love at that point you think my head won’t get turned. And then what happens? Because we’re men, and I don’t try to write for women, women have appreciated this book and benefited from it, but I don’t pretend to write for them or think for them. I’m saying I’m a fellow struggler. I’m not ordained. I’m not a counselor. I’m not a professional. I’m a fellow struggler, and I learned that I didn’t get to grow blinders and that I can have my head turned by some beautiful or sexy female form. And so what do I do about that? Or if I’m at work and I find myself drawn to somebody because of their humor or their charm or their looks

(28:04)
Or their friendliness, they could be a good friend. But I have to remind myself, I made a vow that my attention and the best of me belongs to my spouse. So I told my brother, you’re going to need to determine where your weaknesses are and plant hedges of protection around yourself. You plant them around your mind, your eyes, your hands, your heart, your faith, so that you protect the reputation of your spouse, your own reputation, the reputation of the other person, and ultimately the reputation of Christ. So those are hedges, and then they’re fairly straightforward. The first one that I talk about has become known as the Billy Graham rule. It was in place long before I ever thought of it. And that is that he never traveled or met with or dined alone with a woman he was not related to. So his wife, his daughters, his sisters-in-law, that type of thing, but not strangers.

(29:06)
And some of that, and I make this point and people think that it’s sort of a fine line, but I say, if you take care of how things look, you take care of how they are. Because if you’re never alone with an unrelated woman, you can’t have an affair with them. Things don’t break down. Some people read that and they say, well, are you afraid if you had lunch with a coworker that you’re going to fall into an affair? No, I don’t feel that, and I don’t think that’s on the first thing on my mind or hers, but how does it look? What if somebody said, I saw Jerry with so-and-so, and I wonder what that was about, even though there was nothing there, they wonder, and what if I don’t know the person too well? And maybe they do have designs on me. I suppose I’m flattering myself, but maybe they say something or make some move like that and I reject it. They’re humiliated, and so they’ll tell people, he made a move on me. How would I ever defend against that? All I can say is say it isn’t true.

Aaron Smith (30:08):

Well, I don’t think a lot of men these days realize the intensity of what you’re talking about right now. Because I mean, we saw this several years ago with the whole Me Too movement and people being women, but it could be on both sides, making statements saying things, and it is, it’s one word against another and the accountability of not that you’re afraid that this accident’s going to happen or that someone, because there, there’s a lot of people that’ll say, like you were saying, oh, you’re afraid of women, you’re afraid of what they’re going to do. What are they going to do? Or are you afraid you can’t have self-control that you’re going to just jump at them or something? You’re like, no. But nowadays, there’s so much. There needs to be so much more emphasis on visibility, on accountability, on boundaries, on not being put in situations that are precarious, not being put in situations where one person’s word against yours will be all that there is and making sure that there’s visibility and witnesses for the sake of respect of the other person. For the sake of the respect of yourself.

Jerry Jenkins (31:18):

Exactly. And that’s not to say that there weren’t a lot of valid charges in that Me Too movement, and it’s still going. Of course, the fact is we do need to believe usually most of these charges, but the way to avoid that is to not be alone with a woman you’re not related to. I was struck though by the criticism of that hedge. Mike Pence was one, our former vice president who maintains that rule, and he got hammered by feminist saying, you’re demeaning to women saying that you’re limiting their opportunities. You’d think they’re the ones, especially in the YouTube movement, who would say, that makes sense. You protect our reputation, your reputation. There are ways to get together with another party and that type of thing. You don’t have to be alone. So

Aaron Smith (32:07):

Yeah, I love that the scripture just says, avoiding any semblance of evil and just avoiding the situation altogether out of a mutual respect for the opposite sex. I think that’s a very valid and very important rule that us as believers should have a hedge. Myself, I personally for many years have had this same role of I intend to the best of my ability. There’s been times that I couldn’t avoid it to not be alone in a room. When I go to the doctors and there’s a nurse or the doctor is a female, I ask them to leave the door open, and they always look at me really funny, and they’re like, why? I’m like, just, would you please leave the door open? I don’t even explain myself. I’d like it open, please. And

Jerry Jenkins (32:53):

So it can be embarrassing to maintain that gie. I used to travel quite a bit to speak and to do media and that type of thing, and I would get a call and they’d say, Mrs. So-and-So or Ms. So-and-so’s going to pick you up at the airport. And I would have to say, well, could you make it two women or have a man do it? And it’s embarrassing because you hear this silence and they’re like, why? Really? Then I think, as I mentioned early on, I’m deliriously happily married for 54 years. I wouldn’t trade that for any amount of trying to keep from being embarrassed about that. So that helps.

Aaron Smith (33:33):

Yeah, one of that’s a great hedge by the way, that I think we should all consider as men specifically, but even women. I would never encourage my wife to go be alone with any man that she’s not related to. And so the encouragement would be the same. I’d be like, Hey, make sure that there’s other people around for her safety, for her sake. I don’t know these people.

Jerry Jenkins (33:58):

Right. In fact, that raises an interesting issue because people often wonder, does it work both ways? I think the golden rule really works well here. Whenever I have a question, one of my hedges is that I’m careful about flirting. I like to be funny and I like to use the double entendre and that type of thing, but people can misunderstand that and somebody, they may be in a bad marriage, they may be in abusive marriage, and you’re teasing them and saying, and I’ve heard people do this even in church. Couples will get together and the husband of one couple and the wife of another will say, when are we going to run off together and leave these buns? And everybody laughs because they know they’re just kidding. But what happens when one of those marriages goes a little sour and they start wondering if he’s ever been serious about that? Well, the golden rule kind of question I ask myself when I’m tempted to flirt or say something risque just to be funny is would I want my wife to say that to somebody else or would I want somebody else to say that to her? And if not, I’m not going to do it. And so my bottom line on that hedge is I’ll flirt with my wife, you flirt with yours. Let’s reserve our attention, our humor, our specificity to that one person we vow to be with the rest of our life.

Aaron Smith (35:18):

I’ve seen this. I’ve known men, Christian men who love the Lord and are happily married, who they are very flirtatious. They just call themselves friendly. They’re extra friendly. And I’ve had to encourage ’em, be like, Hey, your extra friendliness seems very flirtatious, and I just want you to be considerate about how you are talking to other women because there’s a different way that men talk to women than they do other men. And it’s very different. And you’re right, the susceptibility this, that you don’t know where someone’s at, you don’t know how someone’s receiving the things you’re saying, and it’s why we should be extra careful on how we are speaking to the opposite sex, that they aren’t misconstruing what we’re doing as flirtatious because it can be seen that way and it could be very offensive to our wife. If your wife, men listening, if your wife saw you being as friendly as you are at the gym with the girl that is just a gym friend or a coworker, is she going to feel secure in the way you’re talking to that woman?

(36:30)
Is she going to feel like that’s okay? And would you do that in front of her? Those are questions that we can ask ourselves because I would imagine many times, no, they wouldn’t. I think if their wife was around, they would feel uncomfortable doing that, but because she’s not, it just flows out of them. And that’s why these hedges are so important is to be what these hedges do there, from what I’m understanding is they are intentional and spoken boundaries. It’s not a secret boundary. It’s not like, oh, I’m just going keep this to myself, but I’m going to try and do my best in not doing this. That no, it’s a, I’m intentionally recognizing this is something that I’m prone to or tempted by. I’m going to create this boundary, as in I don’t do this in these situations. I do this so that it’s unquestionable when you do it. You’re like, oh, I just went beyond that boundary. I just cut through that hedge.

Jerry Jenkins (37:24):

Right? I’ve got a friend who used to travel quite a bit, often flying here and there, and he would wind up in a seat next to an attractive woman and they would strike up a conversation and he said, you can tell when there’s a little spark. And it’s like, oh, this is interesting. And he said it would take him back to his youth and he’d think, so, I’ve still got it. I still look at me like to talk to me, like to interact. And he said what he learned to do, his hedge was as soon as he felt that familiarity, he would pull out his wallet and say, let me tell you about my family. Here’s my wife, here’s my daughters. And he said he could almost feel his daughters off those pictures saying, thanks dad. Thanks for honoring mom and for honoring your marriage and us. And that changed the whole face of the conversation. They could be cordial, they could be interesting with each other, but he was saying, I’m married and happy about it.

Aaron Smith (38:26):

I love that. Sometimes what I do is I just put headphones in. I just avoid the conversation altogether, but sometimes you can’t. And so having those hedges is really good. Another impactful concept you have in your book. We talked a little bit about this about children in the beginning, but you talk about avoiding regrets as a parent, and why don’t you dig into that a little bit, if you don’t mind?

Jerry Jenkins (38:54):

Well, one of the things that I think is helpful, kids, one of the best things that you can do for your kids is to love their mother. Speaking to husbands

(39:07)
Kids. Notice this is a strong memory from my childhood every day when my dad was a man’s man, he was an ex-Marine, he was a police chief his whole career, every day when he got home from work, my parents embraced and kissed. They were glad to see each other. Now, I know that doesn’t happen in every home. People get tired of each other. People are on edge. They’ve been fighting about something. And my dad, even for being a man’s man, he was a poet and he was softhearted, and he would write poems to my mother and he would write poems that would commemorate special days in our lives or birthdays or championships, even a sermon or something like that. And he always referred to my mother as his lifetime Valentine. That’s the example I wanted to show my kids. I wanted them to see me loving their mother. And that means telling your story too. We love to rehearse how we met, how we fell in love. And at certain ages, kids are like, oh, do we have to hear this again? But they love it. Yeah, they do. They do.

Aaron Smith (40:18):

I love that. How do you learn that? That’s not something natural for me. The poetic, your father sounded awesome, but how do you learn some of that? As my wife would put it, romance, that what do you do? How do I get some more of that? It’s not natural for me.

Jerry Jenkins (40:38):

Yeah. I’m not sure how you develop it if it’s not natural because it is more natural with some than others. I think I’m more of a romantic than my wife is. I mean, I get it. I understand her language and I feel loved and cherished and all that, but I tend to be more the one who expresses it. Well, I’m a writer and that’s of all people. It was the poet Robert Frost who said, if there are no tears in the writer, there’ll be no tears in the reader. So when people write to me and who’ve read my novels and they’ll say, I was sobbing through this scene, I’m thinking, well, that was only fair. I was sobbing while I was writing it. But I would say, I would just say, try to put yourself in her shoes. What would she like to hear from you? And hard as it might be for you to express it, step outside your comfort zone and say it even just as I mentioned, one of my hedges is I repeat my vows to my wife occasionally. Sometimes I’ll just be walking from the bedroom to the kitchen and she’s sitting there, maybe she’s watching tv, and I’ll just say, still keeping you only unto me for as long as we both she’ll live.

(41:49)
And she’ll go, thank you. Got it. That’s what she wants to hear.

Aaron Smith (41:54):

I love that. In your book Hedges, what is one of your favorite parts that we haven’t already discussed about the book that you believe my listeners would really be blessed by?

Jerry Jenkins (42:08):

Well, I think maybe the specifics of the story I tell about us falling in love. Diana and I actually fell in love on the third date. We met on a blind date, and my joke is that I rushed up to the pre-arranged spot and saw her and I said, are you Diana? And she said, are you Jerry? And I said, yes. And she said, then I’m not Diana. She says, I don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story. I also remember asking her father for her hand in marriage, and as I mentioned, I like to be funny. He was quite serious. He was a great man of the earth, a farmer we met in the living room of the house he’d been born in. And at one point in the conversation, he asked me if I was prepared to support a family, and I said, no, sir, I’m not. I’m prepared to support her. The rest of you’re going to have to fend for yourselves. He was not amused. That’s

Aaron Smith (43:00):

Really funny though.

Jerry Jenkins (43:02):

It’s a good line. But I can remember after that third date when I just fell head over heels for Diana. I remember driving back. She lived in Fort Wayne, Indiana. I lived in Chicago area. I drove back in the middle of the night and I just had to tell somebody, and I’m thinking, who can I tell? I met the love of my life. I know we’re going to get married. I couldn’t tell her it was her third date, but I just knew it. And I remembered I had a friend who worked in an all night gas station. So I stopped in there about three o’clock in the morning. I climbed up on a 55 gallon oil drum and just told him all about Diana. I sat there for two hours, just rizing over Diana, and I said, you’ll be in the wedding. And she goes, he goes the wedding.

(43:44)
Does she know about this? I said, no, she will. And I get done talking to him. I climbed down off that oil drum and realized I’ve been sitting in a quarter inch of motor oil the whole time. It soaked through my jeans and down my legs. Oh my goodness. I actually felt pretty good, actually. I remember going home, peeking in my parents’ bedroom, just about dawn. My mother opens one eye and she goes, you’re in love. She could see it all over me. I thought it was great, but my kids love hearing that story, and that’s a hedge. Tell your story. People enjoy it. Kids might roll their eyes if they’ve heard too many times, but it’s a good hedge for your marriage too.

Aaron Smith (44:23):

I love that you talk about the refresh of this book, and we’re in a new century. We’re in a new, I would say it this way, we may not be in a fully new century, but technology-wise and how things have changed, we are a thousand years right now away from where you were when you first wrote this book. Just with the way we have access to content that does a lot of things for men and many women now pornography, and every aspect is so easily available and free for the most part on social media, on YouTube, on literally, literally anywhere you go. You can’t watch a Netflix series without getting it. You can’t watch anything now without being inundated with sex. And it’s affecting women now more than ever, but also with social media and the rise of it. You’ve seen this, we all know this, the discontent, the grass is greener on the other side, sentiment for women, the fantasizing about other lives. So both men and women, both husbands and wives now more than ever, need hedges when it comes to technology. Would you speak into that, because I know that’s something that you had to update in the book because there’s no way around it.

Jerry Jenkins (45:53):

Yeah. When I wrote the book, one of the big temptations was adult theaters or adult shops and things like that for Christian men, if they were tempted by this and wondering, what can I see in there? Sometimes the hedge was, if I get caught in there, my reputation is gone, my marriage might be gone. My ministry for sure would be gone. That type of thing. That may not have been the best hedge. The best hedge would be to be so in love with God and in your quiet time and all that, that you’re too spiritual for that. Well, I say take whatever works. If it’s the potential for embarrassment and humiliation that keeps you away, stay away. Well, nowadays you can see anything you want anytime you want with a touch of a button.

(46:47)
And so it may seem a little pedantic, but I think it’s important. I know men who do this, they’ll actually have a card that says, I will set no unclean thing before my eyes. They take it with them on the road when they’re alone and they’re tired and they’re feeling needy, and they see that there’s porn on the television, they pull that card out and they might even call the desk and say, could you turn off the adult movies in my room? And the desk will say, oh, I didn’t realize there were children there and no children, just one big old one,

Aaron Smith (47:22):

Just a child of God.

Jerry Jenkins (47:24):

And one of the things that we have in our TV room, us on the wall are two original Warner Solomon paintings. This is Warner. Solomon’s the guy that did the head of Christ that’s been reproduced so many times, and Christ knocking at the door and that type of thing. Believe me, it affects what you feel free to watch on television when Jesus is on the wall behind you. So whatever it takes, I would say plant that hedge.

Aaron Smith (47:50):

And I want to encourage the men and women listening that we take a good hard look prayerful, look at our relationship with social media, because going back to some of the other hedges about time, something that I am guilty of is wasting it

(48:06)
Where I could be having time with my kids. I’m on my phone and I may not be looking at pornography, but I’m looking at something that’s totally a waste of my time. It’s not productive, it’s just worthless. But us taking as believers, just taking a serious look and not just being a part of today’s culture and saying, well, everyone’s on social media might as well adopt it. And we just use it all the time and be a part of it and be sucked in. Because as with anything, if the product is free, then you’re the product. So if we’re on social media all the time, that’s what they want.

(48:40)
And I think as Christians, we should, I know, again, I’m going back to a lot of convictions that I’m feeling in this conversation is I need to take a strong hard look at my relationship with social media. And as believers, we should be doing that, especially with, if we can’t say that we want our children to be doing it, then we should not be doing it. And what example am I showing to my kids in doing that? So something, I’m definitely going to be working on building a hedge with social media, let alone all of the things that show up on my feed that I don’t want to see, that my kids can’t see. And so it’s so important to do that. So Jerry, you’re doing, I love this conversation we’re having after you married to 53 years.

Jerry Jenkins (49:23):

Yeah. It’ll be 54 in January. Yep.

Aaron Smith (49:25):

Oh, our anniversary is in January. What day?

Jerry Jenkins (49:28):

23rd.

Aaron Smith (49:28):

Oh, okay. Ours is the sixth.

Jerry Jenkins (49:30):

I had it 1, 2, 3, so I wouldn’t forget.

Aaron Smith (49:33):

Oh, nice. That’s so good. That’s so 54 years of marriage in January. What do you believe are the most important lessons you’ve learned about Give one, what’s the most important lesson you’ve learned about loving and serving your spouse? Well,

Jerry Jenkins (49:47):

I think what’s really crucial is mutual respect. We still use manners with each other, even though it’s just us now. There’s no kids in the house unless they’re visiting. But we say, please and thank you. And if I’m going to the kitchen, I ask her if she needs anything, or if I see she’s got an empty bowl next to her, I’ll take it out there. I see so many couples who don’t do this. They just take each other for granted and that type of thing. And we’re friends. We’re not just lovers. We’re friends. And as you proceed in decades long marriages, you realize that’s the important thing. That’s one of the things I was going to mention when you were talking about social media. So many people get in trouble because it’s so easy now to look up old flames. They remember that heart throb of that first love in high school and wonder what’s happened to him or what’s happened to her, and they find out that they’re divorced now, or that they’re widowed or whatever, and they make that connection. Those people are off limits. If you made your bile, those people are off the limits to you. Amen. I got off track of the question you asked, but I think it’s that mutual respect that has been the best lesson for

Aaron Smith (50:57):

Me. Well, just going to, the whole conversation we’re having is building hedges in the first place is respecting your spouse. It’s protecting that unity, that oneness, the one flesh that we are. So my flesh is hers if I’m just using it and just doing what I want with it and having no concern for her and the perspective she has of me, and the perspective that the world has of us, that I’m not respecting her. But I also love those little things that you’re talking about, just cleaning up after her. The words you use, the respectful conduct that you have with your spouse is so important. It’s those little things that get lost, that turn into big things over time. When we don’t continue doing the little, as the Bible says, not growing weary and doing good for Induc season, we will produce a harvest that we,

Jerry Jenkins (51:50):

And you’re right,

Aaron Smith (51:51):

That

Jerry Jenkins (51:52):

Hedges, I mean, hedges are a gift of love to your spouse.

Aaron Smith (51:56):

Man, I totally agree with that. Well, Jerry, I just want to encourage every one of my audience to get a copy of this book, hedges. I think you said it best. It’s more important, more necessary now than ever. I think we have too much access to too many things that the enemy has too many ways of getting in, and we need to put hedges around to protect our homes, our minds, our hearts, our marriages, our children. And that’s a big thing. We have one TV in our house and we move it around. It’s in our bedroom, and if they’re going to watch a show, we bring it out, we put the show on, and then we put it back. And we don’t just give them free access to anything because there’s too many ways the enemy can get in.

Jerry Jenkins (52:42):

That’s a good hedge,

Aaron Smith (52:43):

And we don’t want that. I don’t want my kids taken their hearts and minds captive. So is there anything that, what are you excited about right now, mostly in your career? In your ministry?

Jerry Jenkins (53:00):

Well, it is great fun to be working on the chosen novels. Even after the fact that the season’s being shot, I try to add more inner monologue and even invent more situations to give added value to those. I’m also working on a speculative novel series that would be probably last beyond my lifetime. It’s novels that tell the whole biblical story from pre fall of Satan through Revelation. I asked the guy who wanted me to do that if he had any idea how old I was, but they keep me going. I’m still in the game, still active, but mostly still loving my wife and being happy to be married.

Aaron Smith (53:44):

Praise God. And what more could you ask for? Right when we stand before God, one day he’s going to be like, did you love your wife? Did you love your children? Did you tell them who I am? That’s right. Amen. Hey, Jerry, thank you so much for giving me of your time today. I do. I pray that all my listeners go grab a copy of your book Hedges, and I know their marriages will be blessed by it also, when is the next season of chosen coming out? Do we

Jerry Jenkins (54:09):

Know yet? Season five comes out on Good Friday of 25, so good Friday,

Aaron Smith (54:15):

April next year. Awesome. Well, I should say April of this year, because this is probably coming out in 2025. Jerry, you’ve been a blessing my brother, and I appreciate your time, and thank you so much for being on the Marriage After God podcast.

Jerry Jenkins (54:29):

Thank you, Aaron. It’s always good to,

Aaron Smith (54:45):

Hey, mayor after God. Friends, thank you for your continued faithfulness and listening each and every week. Jennifer and I have often shared with you about how important prayer is in the life of a believer. It’s so important in fact that we’re told this in one Thessalonians, rejoice, always pray without Ceasing give thanks In all circumstances for this is the will of God and Christ Jesus for you. It is God’s will for us to pray, and we want to inspire you to begin praying for your spouse and marriage every day. This world hates marriage and so does our enemy, because he knows the power that your marriage is meant to have in this world. He knows that if you and your spouse are praying and chasing boldly after God together, that the impact Christ will have in and through you will be powerful. So we need to be praying more than ever before.

(55:23)
Our heart is to encourage you along with everyone who listens to this show, to be praying for your spouses and your marriages to be strengthened, renewed, healed, prepared, and empowered to do the ministry that God has for you to do in this world together. So Jennifer and I would love to invite you to join the thousands of other couples in taking our 31 day marriage prayer challenge. This is a completely free and fun way to build a habit of prayer in your marriage. All you have to do to join is visit marriage prayer challenge.com and fill out the registration form. Once you do that, you’ll begin to receive an email every day from us during the 31 days, to not only remind you to pray for your spouse, but we’ll also give you various topics and prompts to help you know what to pray for. We dare your marriage to start praying like never before. Start the challenge today@marriageprayerchallenge.com.



Continue reading...